SA ROCK DIGEST ISSUE NUMBER 23
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The SA Rock Digest is a weekly,
free subscription e-mag, edited
by Brian Currin and delivered
direct to your e-mailbox.
Subscribe, unsubscribe and
back issue information at
the bottom.
Established January 1999.
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INTRODUCTION
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The SA Rock Digest is a discussion forum for anything about
South African rock music; past, present and future.
Read it, digest it, enjoy it, send in your comments
and tell your friends....
"Rock" is a very general term encompassing rock and roll,
pop, folk, rock, ethnic-rock, prog-rock, jazz-rock, country-rock,
soul, R&B, metal, indie, alternative, new wave, reggae, etc, etc.
Don't get hung up...if you want to say something about the music
YOU like, go ahead, say it.
Contributions and comments:
http://www.rock.co.za/files/contactme.html
or...
vagabond@rock.co.za
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NEWS
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ONE WORLD MUSIC
http://www.oneworld.co.za
Andy Harrod (Mad Andy to his friends), announced recently that One World Music
now includes cover scans and track listings on their extensive website.
One World Music has everything from the new Springbok Nude Girls "Surpass The Powers" to the classic "Into The Night We Slide" by the Radio Rats.
One World has an extremely wide range of CDs including Afrikaans Volksliedjies, African Traditional music, music of the Kalahari Bushmen, Sounds of Nature, Kwaito, Johnny Clegg and a host of other genres, styles and artists. Also unique releases like Chris de Burgh's "Live In South Africa" and the "Cosmos" TV series soundtrack CD which are very difficult to find anywhere else.
If its Made In South Africa and its on CD, then its available at One World.
Visit http://www.oneworld.co.za and remember SA Rock Digest members get a 5% discount off their purchases. Just put "digest member" in brackets behind your name when filling in the order form and they will do the rest.
Or e-mail your requests to mailto:sugar@rock.co.za and he will sort you out.
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JOSH SITHOLE MEMORIAL CONCERT
The Barleycorn Music Club and Sterra Promotions are staging a "Josh Sithole
Memorial Concert" which will be held at the Riverclub on
Sunday 1 August 1999.
All bands that play have offered their services for free and all Money
raised will go to his family.
Now here is what is I'm looking for...
There is apparently an album that he recorded awhile ago. (Cecila 1984)
We would like to find out who did this album and whether we can make copies
so that casettes can be sold to raise funds.
Can anybody help? or does someone out there have any good recordings?
Please can they contact me at mailto:murdoch@mweb.co.za or phone me,
Many thanks.
Steve Murdoch.
Tel: +27 21 6836144
Cell: 083 4487292
{Editor: I remember seeing Josh years ago at the old Oyster Bar at the De Waal Hotel in Cape Town...a one-man band like no other.}
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COUNTING CROWS - LIVE IN SOUTH AFRICA
BIG CONCERTS presents COUNTING CROWS, the hottest American band to hit
the South African shore in many years at concerts in Cape Town, Durban,
Sun City and Johannesburg in August. Acoustic rock at its best and
suitable for all ages, COUNTING CROWS repertoire will include hits Mr
Jones, Round Here, Omaha, A Long December and Daylight Fading.
Adam Duritz and David Bryson met and began writing songs together in
1989 and in 1990 started performing as an acoustic duo at coffeehouses
and small clubs calling themselves COUNTING CROWS.
"When you think of the flimsiness of anything you may hang onto in life,
you might as well be counting crows," says singer/songwriter Adam Duritz
of the old English divination rhyme that gave his band the name.
COUNTING CROWS 1993 debut album, August and Everything After, reached
number 4 on the Billboard 200 album chart and has sold over six million
copies worldwide. Rolling Stone called August and Everything After "one
of the best rock releases of the year". Second album, Recovering the
Satellites debuted on the Billboard 200 at number 1 - two weeks after
release in 1996 and was certified double platinum in 1997. Their latest
album, Across a Wire - Live in New York was released in 1998.
"Things are disastrous for a lot of people in my songs," says Duritz.
"They don't have communication skills to get what they want and they
wind up hurting other people - and getting hurt - when they try." Yet
Counting Crows handle the hurt with genuine depth of feeling that lends
a certain transcendency. "The most important thing about this band is
heart. That's where the songs come from; that's what I'd most want
people to understand," says Duritz.
Once you hear COUNTING CROWS, you’ll know it’s a damn good reason. Not
just for Duritz, but for the other gifted Bay Area musicians - guitarist
David Bryson, bassist Matt Malley, drummer Steve Bowman, keyboardist
Charlie Gillingham, and semi-official Crow, multi-stringed
instrumentalist David Immergluck - that comprise the band.
Musing further on human existence, Duritz adds, "I just don’t get it;
I’m not driven like other people. But I can write songs and I can sing -
and it gives me a reason to be here."
COUNTING CROWS may well land a new sense of reason to your life, too.
Emotionally generous, articulate songs beautifully rendered can do that.
Attie van Wyk, Managing Director, Big Concerts said: "We are delighted
to be bringing Counting Crows to South Africa and hope that local fans
are excited to see Adam Duritz and his band live in concert for the
first time in South Africa."
COUNTING CROWS is presented by BIG CONCERTS in association with KFM.
TOUR ITINERARY
August 4 Cape Town Bellville Velodrome
August 6 Durban Westridge Park Stadium
August 8 Sun City Superbowl
August 9 Johannesburg Standard Bank Arena
BOOKING EXCLUSIVELY AT TICKETWEB
http://www.ticketweb.co.za
{Editor: if you like the Counting Crows...and no, they are not Sheryl's brothers...then give a listen to Fairy Tales And Wishes by South African band Mr.Jones.
Visit indie.co.za for more info}
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TOTAL ABANDON
Deep Purple are not a South African band, but I know a number of Digest readers are big fans so here is some news...
A new Deep Purple live CD and video are due out very shortly. Recorded live at Melbourne Park in Australia on the 20 April this year, the 2CD set titled "Total Abandon Australia 99" captures a complete in-concert performance of the "grandfathers of rock" in full flight.
Track listing:
DISC ONE:
1. TED THE MECHANIC
2. STRANGE KIND OF WOMAN
3. BLOODSUCKER
4. PICTURES OF HOME
5. ALMOST HUMAN
6. WOMAN FROM TOKYO
7. WATCHING THE SKY
8. FIREBALL
9. SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE SCREAMING
DISC TWO:
1. SMOKE ON THE WATER
2. LAZY
3. PERFECT STRANGERS
4. SPEED KING
5. BLACK NIGHT
6. HIGHWAY STAR
Musicians:
Ian Gillan: vocals
Steve Morse: guitar
Jon Lord: keyboards
Roger Glover: bass
Ian Paice: drums
See the cover scan at:
http://www.angelfire.com/bc/sarock/totalabandon.jpg
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NEBULA NEWS UPDATE
Happy Birthday to us!
Nebula BOS will be celebrating its first birthday during July, and
what a year it's been. Those "star-studded" Indie Music Explosion Racks
are now an integral and popular section of all the Musica stores
nationwide. Hundreds of independant SA artists now have their albums
prominently displayed on SA CD shelves. Artists such as Colorfields,
Dantai, Jorge Carlos, Nagual, Black Noise and November 5 are already
household names and there's much more strong, unsigned indie talent
where that came from.
An announcement is also expected shortly regarding the forthcoming
release of several Nebula BOS artists' albums in Germany.
Black Noise get moving
Black Noise will be up in Johannesburg soon as part of their Awareness Tour
for the National Breakdance Championships. This will coincide with some
concerts (to be announced) and the filming of a short documentary for
an insert on the SABCTV program Geraas (20 & 21 July).
More fireworks from November 5
The good word on the album '617' continues to spread. November 5
recently grabbed third prize in the SANDF 5th Anniversary Art and
Writing competition with the song 'Wish you were here'. Geraas will
also be filming the band, on July 17th, for an upcoming program.
Braam (ex-the Led) and his minstrels have also gone forward
to the next round in the 1999 Shell Road to Fame Talent Search and were
recently interviewed by Lee Thompson on 5FM.
Dantai get vinyl release
Based on the success of their debut album, 'Operation Lahlela' and the
chart-topping exploits of 'Pyjama Jam', the first single released off
this album, Dantai now has four of the singles off the album released
on vinyl. These four songs are backed by three new songs off the album
'Kom Kom' by Kom Kom, another exciting new Cape kwaito band
Contact your local vinyl store or call 021-790-4888
Something for the young rockers
The hot, new Cape Town Christian Harcore band, 7th Breed, will be
performing at Danie Uys in Bellville (behind Toys-R-Us) on July 10th at
2pm. This is for those fans who cannot get out at night (shame!).
On Friday evening (July 9th), the band will be supporting Diminished
Returns at The Planet in Observatory. These two concerts are a warm-up
for their upcoming tour to Johannesburg as well as a thank you to their
fans whose support and enthusiasm saw them achieve two seperate hits on
Barney Simon's Modern Rock Charts on 5FM.
Thank You For Supporting Independent South African Artists
The Nebula News Team
mailto:news@nebulabos.co.za
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All Nebula BOS artists are available
on the Indie Music Explosion racks
in all 125 Musica Stores nationwide,
as well as at Top CD Waterfront Cape Town
& at CD Wherehouse Rosebank and Sandton
The Indie Music Explosion
indie.co.za
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MORE NEWS....
More news, reviews and opinions at these music sites:
Amuzine - http://rock.co.za
Powerzone - http://www.powerzone.co.za
Jol - http://www.jol.co.za
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REQUESTS
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Judith Briggs <judith@netactive.co.za> wrote:
I wonder if you can tell me what has become of Chris
Prior, our own and best always DJ? He seems to have disappeared from
the airwaves...
{Editor: anybody know where the Rock Professor is nowadays? Let us know}
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CAPE TOWN PROMOTERS
I was just wondering if anyone has any info/contact details for music promoters in Cape Town. I have had some requests regarding this from a number of British Musicians who are going to be travelling to SA in December, and I would like to be able to put them in touch with some people down there.
Cheers
Dylan Marks
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FORUM
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CLASSIC SONG OF THE WEEK:
Fever - Otis Waygood Blues Band
(John Davenport/Eddie Cooley) [4.21]
Rob Zipper: vocals, guitars, saxophones/Ivor Rubenstein: vocals, percussion/Leigh Sagar: guitars, organ/Martin Jackson: vocals, flute/Alan Zipper: bass
Like Uriah Heep and Jethro Tull, there is no actual person in this band called Otis Waygood. Rumours exist that a certain lift company was the inspiration for the name...who knows? But "Blues Band" says their name and flute-, sax- and harmonica-driven blues is what they played. Originating in Zimbabwe (then known as Rhodesia), the band moved to South Africa in November 1969 and released their first, self-titled album in 1970, which included their reworking of "Fever".
http://www.rock.co.za/files/otis_waygood.html
Garth Chilvers, co-author of the book, The History Of Contemporary Music Of South Africa (TOGA, 1994), rates Fever as "one of the finest singles ever to be released in this country". Fever was originally recorded by Little Willie John in 1956 and sold over a million copies. It was co-written by John Davenport who's real name is, wait for it...Otis Blackwell. He also co-wrote the rock and roll classics All Shook Up and Great Balls Of Fire. The song was also a million-seller for Peggy Lee when she recorded it in 1958. Fever has been covered a number of times by artists as diverse as Elvis Presley, Madonna, the McCoys and Helen Shapiro.
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JONATHAN RAT
PLEASE TELL NICK TAYLOR I SAY THANK YOU FOR WRECKORDING ME AT HIS HOUSE ALL THOSE YEARS AGO. HE AND LULU VAN DER WALT TOLD ME TO FORM A BAND AFTER THEY HELPED ME WITH THOSE DEMOS. THAT BAND BECAME RADIO RATS.
I ATTACH A RAT FOR YOUR AMUSEMENT.
YOURS SINCERELY,
JONATHAN RAT
{Editor: see "A rat as drawn by a mouse" at http://www.rock.co.za/files/radiorats_night.html }
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NEED A LIFT?
Mike Greeff wrote:
Some of the stuff I have managed to find recently include:
Astra CD from Cybercd Germany;
Galactic Vibes CD from Metro Music USA;
Battle Hymn LP from VVMO USA;
Ten Light Claps CD from Doug Larson Imports USA.
I also have the second Otis Waygood LP, which I notice is missing
from your website.
{Editor: thanks to Mike's input you can now visit
http://www.rock.co.za/files/simply_otis.html
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REVIEWS
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SUGARDRIVE - WHEN I DIED I WAS ELVIS
Although their first album, 'Tell God I'm Here' was mostly an "unholy racket", Sugardrive roared back, and cemented their position as one of SA's best bands with their second album, the brilliant 'Sand.Man.Sky.' Hence the huge expectations that greeted this, their new offering with the weird title. Where 'Sand.Man.Sky.' glittered with a rich diversity of material, speeds and styles, 'When I Died I Was Elvis' (on first listen) seemed to be a low-key, almost flat effort, despite the hype that preceded its release. But Paul E Flynn, Gavin Wienand, Michael Westwood and Garth McLeod are far too smart to dump any old shit on their adoring public, so this new album deserved a few listens before any final judgements were made. Eventually these 10 songs began to unravel and the ideas and motives behind this album began to emerge.
It's still not anything like what we originally expected. 'When I Died I Was Elvis' (what does that mean??) is a shimmering album that burns slowly and serves up its delights almost grudgingly. Paul E Flynn's lyrics are not your usual rhyming couplets and cool hooks. A glance at the lyrics in the booklet reveal a mostly stream of consciousness-based lyrical approach. This ties in with the very laid-back feel of all of these songs. Staccato drums, flickers of guitar and unobtrusive bass provide a soft backdrop for the emotional and yearning lyrics that Flynn growls, moans and mumbles his way through. Although 'Disco Lazarus', the first single, has been receiving decent airplay, it seems Sugardrive would have preferred to avoid releasing any singles at all. There has been a recent return to the concept of producing albums that can only be appreciated by hearing them as a unified whole. 'When I Died I was Elvis' is a brave and mostly successful attempt to achieve that, and as such, it risks losing the attention of many fans and radio stations who prefer to pull certain tracks for compilation tapes and playlists. But, ultimately it is that continuity, depth and focused purpose that lifts this album above many of the other SA rock albums released recently.
-- Stephen Segerman
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DISCO FEVER
Do you remember the mid-to-late 70s with great affection?
Platform shoes, sessions, roadhouses, etc?
Bands like HOT R.S. and Buffalo?
If not, then ignore this next section...
OK, your'e still here...good.
Derek Smith from Gallo has compiled a 2CD set called Disco Fever which features some great South African disco/dance tracks from the 70s. These 2 discs are filled to the max with music...over 150 minutes of music, memories and magic.
Been looking for the full-length version of "Eloise Concerto" by Rouge?
Well here it is, all 17 minutes 32 seconds of Zane Cronje's rearrangement of the classic Barry Ryan hit, "Eloise". Wonderful stuff.
Remember Neil Cloud, the drummer from Rabbitt, combining the Marmalade's 1970 chart-topper "Reflections Of My Life" with Ennio Morricone's theme from the Clint Eastwood spaghetti western "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly"? Well its here, over 17 minutes of it and featuring the voice of Rene Veldsman (of Via Afrika).
HOT R.S. took their name from the intials of their first album the House Of The Rising Sun and there are no less than 4 examples of the orgasmic disco rock that Donna Summer first pioneered and Dan Hill, Kevin Kruger and friends made their own. Tracks from all three of HOT R.S.'s albums are included here.
Peter Vee's Buffalo took Steppenwolf's "Born To Be Wild" and "Magic Carpet Ride" to new heights of disco/rock and both are included here.
I don't know much about Disco Rock Machine, except that Trevor Rabin was involved. Their version of the Kinks "You Really Got Me" is great, with some punchy guitar.
A track I've been searching for on CD for a long time, has been John Ireland's "Living Inside My Head". Well, the search is over, as the full 6.25 album version is here on this CD. John's rearrangement of the "Greensleeves" melody is superb and that whistling sythesizer pre-dates the "X-Files" Theme by 2 decades or so.
Also on this excellent compilation are Sipho Hotstix Mabuse's "Burnout", Hiroshima's "People Like Us" and Harari's "Give".
So buy this CD, put on your platforms, grab your cherrie and take yourself on a magic carpet ride with the delta queen to the garden of Eden.
OK, the rest of you musical snobs can join us again.
-- Rubin Carrin
PS Gallo has kindly supplied the Digest a copy of this CD to give away to one lucky subscriber.
So send in a short e-mail justifying why you could not live another day without having this CD in your collection. The most orginal and humorous one wins the prize. The editor's decision is final.
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NEW RELEASE
Also out from Gallo is Steve Kekana's "The English Album" - a compilation by Derek Smith with liner notes by Malcolm Lombard. Includes all his great hits like "The Bushman", "I Feel So Strong" (with PJ Powers), "Raising My Family" and "All I Need Is Here In Africa".
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SIMPLY RED IN CONCERT
Johannesburg, June 29th 1999.
When you cover a lot of concerts, you tend to be blase about them and they start to sound and look similar. This was my expectation when I arrived at the Sundome to cover the Simply Red concert. And boy was I in for a shock.
The supporting act was Wendy Oldfield and I must say that I found her show to be relatively colourless and not particularly exciting. I am not saying that it wasn't professional, but it just didn't have that special something which makes a difference. The show started early which was most unusual for a rock concert, they are almost always late.
Then on came Simply red, and the whole scenario changed. The band and Mick arrived on stage without much fanfare and immediately got down to the business of providing the audience with an incredibly professional show. The way the whole show was organised smacked of a level of professionalism which demonstrated why this performer and his band are regarded as true superstars. What made this show far more interesting for me was the clarity of the performances. The band were very tight and the sound undoubtedly is the best I have heard in a long time. I struggle to remember a sound as clean and crisp as this. Rarely does an artist sound as good live as off their studio recordings, but this was a true exception. Never, Never and It's only love were presented to the audience with a professionalism which would go a long way to be surpassed. The show was not a spectacular show like the Michael Jackson's of this world, but the whole package was so professionally staged that it was better than the pyrotechnic spectaculars which usually accompany the international rock stars. What impressed me incredibly was the lighting. The lighting engineer/designer had obviously gone to a lot of trouble to provide the audience with a visual accompaniment to the music and it added to the entire show. This is a show which shouldn't be missed. The presentation is not only a demonstration of a truly professional production, it was more than that, it had magic and the message and the music were not confused by over production. The show simply got better and better as it went along. The band members demonstrated a real professionalism without having to resort to being flashy and overpowering.
I had heard Simply Red on CD and seen a variety of their music videos, but nothing prepared me for the show, it way exceeded my expectations. The audience were obviously entranced, sang along with a lot of the numbers which were familiar, and there is no doubt in my mind that they all went away more than satisfied. The audience had come to see Simply Red and hear Mick singing familiar songs. I left just after the song Money, and I was sorry to leave. This show I could watch again and I would probably enjoy it even more. I cover a lot of material for overseas music stations and this was a real treat, I would recommend that if you want to see an honest and professional show, this one is the one. If any concert I see in the future is presented as professionally as this one, it will be a rare treat. The sound was crisp, the lighting was very complimentary to the music and the star, well he is truly a star.
The Set List:
Mellow my mind
Never Never
Its only love
Air that I breathe
Than You
So beautiful
Say you love me
Look into your eyes
Night Nurse
Come get me an angel
Man made the gun
Come to my aid
Infidelity
Thrill me
If you don't know me
Stars
Right thing
Money
Something
Fairground
This tour now heads for Europe, next stop Copenhagen. They are in for a treat.
In the near future we are also in for a few treats, Roberta Flack will be here shortly and Counting Crows will be here at the Standard Bank Arena on 9th August. I am a great fan of both and I will be looking forward to hearing them perform. If either of them give the performance experience which I had tonight, then I may have to pinch myself just to make sure I haven't died and gone to heaven. I liked Simply Red before the concert, I am now smitten.
Paul Mills
Green Channel Broadcast News
Johannesburg
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NEW NUDES
In next week's issue we give away a copy of the new Springbok Nude Girls CD "Surpass The Powers" courtesy of Paul Thackwray of Sony Music South Africa.
Watch this space for details on how to win.
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VOTING BOOTHS
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Visit these voting booths and cast a vote for YOUR favourites....
SA Classic Rock albums
http://www.freevote.com/booth/sarock
All-time Great SA Pop and Rock songs
http://www.freevote.com/booth/sapop
McCully Workshop albums
http://www.freevote.com/booth/mccully
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LINKS
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SOUTH AFRICA'S ROCK FILES
The online archive for the History of South African Rock
http://welcome.to/sarock
TOO GOOD TO BE FORGOTTEN
Message Board for SA Rock
http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb311757
AMUZINE
African MUsic magaZINE
http://rock.co.za/
POWERZONE
The Hub of South African Music
http://www.powerzone.co.za/
ONE WORLD
Selling South African Music to the World
http://www.oneworld.co.za/
5% discount for Digest members!
Type "Digest Member" in brackets
after your name when submitting info.
INDIE MUSIC EXPLOSION
The Ultimate Independent Music Site in South Africa
indie.co.za/
GALLO MUSIC
Supporting South African Music
http://www.gallo.co.za/
BACKSTAGE
The Musician's Resource
backstage.co.za/
THE GIG GUIDE
Whats on in Cape Town
http://www.gig-guide.co.za/
ZA@PLAY
What's on in Cape Town and around South Africa
http://www.mg.co.za/mg/art/music/listing/music-ct.htm
SLY
Online magazine
http://www.sly.co.za/
STREET LEVEL RECORDS
Cape Town's Independent Record Label
http://www.streetlevel.co.za/
MUSICADS
Free musical equipment classifieds ad website
http://www.twisted.co.za/musicads/
SA MUSIC DATABASE
Over 100 links relating to South African music
http://members.xoom.com/samusicd/links.html
RIESTER INTERNATIONAL RECORDS
South African independent record company
http://www.riester-records.co.za/
JOL
http://www.jol.co.za
FRESH MUSIC
Independent multi-faceted music group
http://www.fresh.co.za
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ADVERTS
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SPLASHY FEN BOOK
Chris Chapman
(031) 3036466
mailto:chris@artworks.co.za
http://www.splashyfen.co.za
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QSOUND
Makes your computer sound better if you listen to MP3's, WAV files, music samples, web radio, on-line concerts and much more.
Visit http://www.rock.co.za/files/mp3software.html and click on QSound banner.
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VIBES MUSIC - N1 CITY, CAPE TOWN
An extensive selection of vinyl and CDs. Big supporters of South African music.
Speak to Neil or Alan on 021-595 3220 or email Neil at: mailto:vibes@fast.co.za
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OUTLAW RECORDS, CAPE TOWN
Vinyl and second-hand CDs. Always something new.
Branches at:
Cape Town Central:
55 Castle Street (off Long Street), Cape Town
Wynberg:
3 CHB Building (opposite the entrance to Wynberg Hospital),
Maynard Road, Wynberg
10% discount for Digest members!
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RADIUM WRECKORDS
Looking for Radio Rats, Popguns, Chauffeurs or Glee Club recordings?
Contact Johathan Handley for a catalogue at:
Radium Wreckords
Suite 207
Postnet
Private Bag X10
Flamwood
2572
Klerksdorp
mailto:jhandley@aghs.co.za
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JEFF BECK: CRAZY FINGERS
by Annette Carson
The first and only definitive biography of Jeff Beck - published in South Africa in January 1999 and available by mail order from the author. Trade paperback format,
256 pages, with a comprehensive discography.
SA price R85,00, or R100,00 including registered p&p. International orders
by surface mail US$18.00 or 13 British pounds, by airmail US$30.00 or 20
British pounds. E-mail mailto:carson@global.co.za or call (011) 883 3619.
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BACK ISSUES
-------------
All Digest back-issues can now be downloaded as one
small zip file (less than 300kb).
Go to: http://www.rock.co.za/files/sarockdigest.zip
__________________________________________
RULES
-------
The SA Rock Digest is compiled by Brian Currin from the
"Too Good To Be Forgotten" internet message board, e-mails from
Digest members and other varied sources.
For the basic rules of the Digest please visit:
http://browse.to/sarock
or I can e-mail them to you.
_____________________________________________
SUBSCRIPTIONS
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Reading someone else's copy of this e-mag?
Firstly thank the person who sent it to you, for being someone of
incredible good taste and perception...
...and then subcribe yourself by sending an e-mail to
vagabond@rock.co.za with any words or phrases that vaguely
indicate acceptance.
Y'know, like "I'm in", "That's great", "OK", "Here's R1000 send me a
copy"...whatever.
Or...visit http://browse.to/sarock and fill in the very simple form.
--------
Want to unsubscribe from this e-mag?
Surely not, but if you really must, then just send me an e-mail,
saying "I hate SA music", "I'm bored" or "get my out of here" or
"I've had enough" or whatever, I'll get the idea, eventually.
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